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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  April 6, 2013 12:00am-1:00am PDT

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>> rose: additional funding provided by captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: the women in the world summit opens in new york this week. hillary clinton, oprah winfrey and afghanistan's first female presidential candidate among others will be there. the conference of course is the brainchild of tina brown,
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the editor of the daily beast and "newsweek". joining me with tina are shoma chaudhury, managing editor of the indian "newsweek"ly, and zainab salbi founder of the women international. i'm pleased to have them here at this table to talk about this important conference and to have tina here to tell me what the vision is, and exactly what she opens-- hopes to see it be this year. hi. >> thank you, charlie. we're thrilled this year. we have an extraordinary women. some of the themes i feel strongly this year are could we be at a tipping point for women because we have seen a year of tremendous ferrment. there have been many stories in the headlines which have created great outcry. >> especially brutality. >> brutality. you're thinking about, i'm thinking about things like mull allah, the savage rape in india, these stories have really, really brought people out on to the streets. i think it's a combination of social media, a combination of just a climax in a sense of women beginning to kind of become
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more and more empowered globally. and the question is, is this now going to start to really change cultures for the better. and if not, how can we reinforce that movement forward. so that is really-- . >> rose: what do you think is necessary to make sure that this sort of, that the climate changes? what has to happen? >> well, firstly i think what we do at the summit is tell stories. and telling the stories is the first act in changing things. because people don't respond to issues, women's issues. they respond as we see can mullala and the rape, true story, if you can tell those stories, create the excitement and the fascination and the outrage in a sense about those individual stories, you do create a window for which people can go through. and the important thing is, of course, when those windows of real interest happen, like with the rape story, is that people do walk through. and they do start to raise their voices and say this has to change. and keep that pressure up. you see president obama trying to do that with gun control, with newtown and of course we also know how
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quickly that interest disparate-- dissipates. so keeping the pressure up at the time when the interest is there is actually very key i think for people who want to move the needle. >> talk about what happened in india and how it became such a searing symbol. >> yeah, i mean you know until this really horrific happened, and the interesting thing about it is that even today, despite the massive outrage, the pouring out on the street, people are still reacting to the particular brutality of that rape because how-- were pulled out, 95% of it was just pulled out of her body. it was really the most brutal kind of rape that one has ever heard of. so people were really reacting to the violence of that more than just the rape. and that's something that is very sobering, skort of, recognition. but there are two things, for all these years, there's been a sense that when anybody violence against women in india, that women ask for it, you know, either because they are of loose character, they have been
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provocative, they're sexually prolific. or that they haven't been-- why they are out so late at night. why in a particularly dark side of down. this patriarchee where rape doesn't have anything to do with sexual-- it is really an assertion of power, you know, so there are many caste systems in india and typically not in urban centers so much but in rural india. most rapes are kind of association of caste power. this particular rape, you know, just a whole lot of things coalesced. one was the violence. the other was the fact that it was 9:00 at night, a very tony part of town, well to do, sort of part of town. and she was with a man, you know. and then she had gone to see a film, life of pi so there was a lot of middle class attributes that just fell into place. and there was a brutality and then the fact that for almost 10 days the state and
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the government did not respond, you know. and as the newspapers came out with more and more horrific details, people just poured into the streets. and you know, partly it was social media, the fact that there is air very new generation in india, very frustrated, very connected by the internecessary. you know there is a new sort of middle class that is educated, but you know, not yet pate ree ated into the life of privilege, so a lot of frustration. and because there's a lot more awareness, because it is a technology connected world, there's a great desire for better governance. there is more accountability demanded out of government. so all of that sort of fell into place. and the media helped, you know. because there was a kind of minute-by-minute coverage. that really coalesced into the kind of outrage that one saw. >> so at long last change? >> chose change yarl charlie actually for the first time,
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barely 78 hours, just as i got off the flight from india i saw that the criminal law amendment bill has been passed by the president, you know. so it's actually brought in a lot of changes. there is the kind of stricter punishment now for rape that has been taken from 10 years to 20 years. you know, in most cases it would continue to be a kind of life imprisonment. unfortunately, they have also asked for capital punishment in a kind of habitual, somebody who rapes again and again. which is something that most women's groups did not want, you know there is a huge debate going on on capital punishment in india. but unfortunately the governments plead to the gallery and has introduced capital punishment. but more than that, you know, all these years, as i said the onus was on the woman. we had this absolutely barbaric two finger test where there was a kind of penetrative medical examination to prove whether she was raped or not there was this idea that somebody who is habit yated to sex could not be raped.
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there was this ridiculous clause of someone's morality and dignity on or being offended. some of all of that has changed, you know. also most crucially, most rape is a very underreported crime in india. partly because the police justant don't want to file it. there is a kind of endemic misogyny in the policement but this bill has brought a very, very important clause which is that if any police officer or any government officer does not record rape when a woman wants to file a complaint, then they themselves are susceptible to imprisonment. >> the most important thing it seems to me in part, the many important things is the silence has been broken. >> the silence has been broken. >> it is key in the telling of the story and how you have to keep that pressure up. that i think is an exciting difference. there is a brilliant please in the digital "newsweek" that tells the story that is so compelling. at the end i feel the more these stories are told the better. >> what is the point of the story you tell in this
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digital "newsweek"? >> you know, there's a very, very disturbing sort of movement in india which is that she came from a completely lower middle class, actually a working class background. her father was a-- in the airport. but she was pulling herself out of the kind of nether regions of just lack 6 privilege, that many classes feel in india. and ironically her rapists come from exactly its same class of society. and what i really found when, you know, i went and visited her parents. i visited the boyfriend that she was with. and i visited all the rapists' family. and typically the coverage has been that they came from slums and so there was a kind of stereotyping of them. but the locality from which they came is exactly the kind of upward mobile, upwardly mobile communities that she came from, you know. extremely impoverished parents but a new generation that speaks english, that
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dresses well, that would rather not eat but dress well. that would rather have a tv rather than a bed. you know, people were trying to buy into the new economic sort 6 upsurge of india, the and she was really the aspirant face of that. she was training to be a doctor, her brother wants to be an astronaut, her middle brother an engineer. and the rapists were people who were also know, grade ten educated. some of them had just done graduation but had not broken through, you know. so none of them barring one had any history of violence at all. but they got together one evening, from neighbors' accounts and police accounts, they drank. and my own sense of visiting their families is that something just boiled over in them, you know. and there's a kind of frustration much being at the edge of a very shinny, very glamorous city and they very conspicuously, --
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>> that's what i found so interesting. >> there is a membrane between these cultures that then sort of gets shattered. that actually they're too close. that they the idea of all of this in a mobility and excitement and wealth, and they're so near and yet they're so far, must create this great set of frustrations. >> internal rage. >> rose: let me turn to the political action and all of us who have been there and watched the arab spring. whatever it is, now. but i remember seeing lots of women, lots of women. have they been left behind as this has unfolded? >> women in the middle east are right now the battlefields. on witch there is the fights between the islamists and the modernists. and everyone is fighting rses within islam. >> within islam and i'm calling them modernist and not secularist because they are saying we are muslims as well but we practice but we don't want islam to regulate our daily life or religion to regulate our daily life.
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and women are very much the battlefield. it's not about women vis-a-vis man, it's about who controls women. how do they move. how do they get access, what do they dress up like. that's the battlefield right now. and so, and women are angry, women are very angry. so what you see in the middle east. >> angry about everything. >> angry about, because they say -- >> they were part of change and now being left back. >> when they were part of the change, they were part of the change not as women but as citizens. as youth as wanting to gets jobs, the essence of the arab spring. >> frequently needsing change. >> absolutely. and actually every single event, whether tunesia or he gipts or libya, there was a woman that was the triggering point of these events. and when you interview all of them, they say we were there as citizens. we did not feel ourselve as women. we were there because we were asking for what everyone wanted. we wanted sdwrob. we wanted dignity. we wanted a dignified life. we wanted political freedom. and then they were saying
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and now we lead to the change. and then it becomes about us. it becomes about who controls us. and so it's actually invigorating the whole sense of feminism f you may, as saying we, we actually entered here as equals and you're making it about us and you want us to be pushed back into the home. and so it's actually a ver very-- it's a depressing story on one hand but also it's a story where women are fighting and it's become the story of the middle east and everyone is saying why are you picking on women when you still have to mobilize your economy. and you still have to get the jobs. still the same issue has not changed. and so that's what is holding the tension right now. >> we have a woman coming to the conference who is going to be on the panel tomorrow from syria. and she is talking about how girls, however, are-- young girls are being raped more and more and force mood early marriage because of the war in syria. >> well, all of it, since the iraq war i just came back from iraq and to do assessment 67 what's happened to women in the
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last ten years. the eye rab-- iraq war changed it from women up until that point we're not touched. and all of a sudden when would the life of the islamist as a political force and military force, all of a sudden we have an introduction of women being kidnapped, raped, tortured, violated in ta require square there were a couple of months ago a public rape. you can see it on the internet, actually, of a woman surrounded by men and molesting her and touching her, and raping her in tahrir square in the middle of a mob, basically. and so all of a sudden women in the region, in the middle east, in islam move from untouchable, basically z not touch women, during saddam's time, for example, the most political faw pa, you just smile and he's like okay it's a woman. and now that line has been crossed. and it is becoming the battlefield. the women's bodies are becoming the battlefields in
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what happens to them. so some very tense area and i don't think that people know how to deal with it. i know governments for example, are saying the women are angry but we do not know how to deal with it but the women are angry for a very practical reasons. they are saying we are right. we used to have better rights. >> in afghanistan there is expectation with american draw down that at least you'll have the taliban covering parts of the controlled parts of the country in kabul and other places, not so, necessarily, in negotiations but is there a real fear that in those places that the taliban control would go back to the kind of treatment of women that occurred before the war and they were thrown out? >> i think it was tremendous fear of that. but i also do think that things have changed for women so dramatically in afghanistan, that there is now a real fighting base. >> we will not go back. >> i think there's going to be tremendous resistance from the women. >> people like-- who is coming to the summit who is-- may well run for president of afghanistan. these are-- she's amazing.
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and you know, there are a lot of women now in parliament in afghanistan. >> i was just going to say that she is right. we've been interviewing some of these afghani women and i think the crucial thing that has happened with america's intervention in afghanistan perhaps unlooked for is that women actually have come into their own, you know. and a lot of these women say that everyone forgets that quite apart from the big political game going on that women today are really asserting themselves. and that when the taliban comes back, and they will, that they will have a kind of new layer of women-- to deal with. and they would really rather be left to themselves to fight that. >> i've been wait-- they've been waiting to educate themselves secretly. they pretend it is a sowing clnó but they are really learning. it may be subterranean but it is going to happen. >> all of that is true but the fear is also real. >> very real. >> the progress is not to be underestimated-- underestimated. huge progress since 2001.
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but their fear, and when you go to afghanistan and talk with them and they stay look, the taliban started with us. when they first came to afghanistan they started with us. they started by saying women are home. and then, you know, exactly. and then eventually it spread through every citizen in afghanistan and eventually it impacted men, eventually it impacted people, children. and they argue and eventually it impacted america so now they are basically waving 9 flag and saying don't forget about us because it started with us. and we are vulnerable. so they do need the support despite their progress in the last decade. >> incumbent upon to us keep that up pressure because as we saw in india it has made a big difference. >> how important is the role of having the summit? and its nearly role, it's an ongoing role as a clearinghouse so that women in every country knows what's happening to women everywhere? so that there is a kind of consciousness that 9 world knows what's going on.
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>> i think it's essential. i mean we started the summit really because there are so few places left in the media which actually want to tell these stories. because network television and print outlets don't really want to do foreign affairs, it's not box office. so the idea that -- >> except where we are sitting. so for a start there is that which is where do they tell their stories. but also the actual meeting of all these women from different cultures and things is so interesting. >> talk about that, the fungible, the combustable, the fact you are there two, the two of you sharing ideas and feels is so that it not only inspires you but in reinforceds your sense of i'm on the right track and there's more to do and other people know how important it is that we keep at it. >> i think it's huge, you know, i've been coming for the summit ever since tina started it. and i think the crucial thing it does through the telling of the stories is yes, it reinforces a sense of yourself, a sense of your agency most of all.
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and. >> of your agency. >> so you can be an agent of change. >> that you can be an agent of change. that you have volition, you know, because i think in most societies women live without the idea, you are always acted upon. are you never the acting agent, you know, every time you hear stories of women who have really broken through very, very oppressive structures, it reinforces your own fights. and in all the after summities conversations of dinners and lunches, you see that, you know. and i think the other thing is when you sell brat that and you know this is a-- where i think women aru
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modernity tra dismingts it's just about finally women individual yating themselves. and that is the most exhilarating aspect of the protest in india this time. that women were claiming autonomy over their body. they were not asking for security. they were just claiming autonomy over jobs and bodies. and men were very much part of that conversation. >> but you represented both of you and all of you, represented all the people coming, represent it seems to me the change because you have, because of the magazine, you have power. and you have the capacity now to do more than whoever was before, yes? >> that's true, you know. i will say that for which he works is a brilliant magazine that actually does go into these gritty issues. but it's also something very exciting think when you get the cross-cultural conversations. we have somebody coming from india actually called ravi cantoo one of these three brothers who actually started an ngo which is actually against women and he's an extraordinary passionate about it.
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and he's a lawyer who is absolutely leaning on these issues. and he was talking to me last night actually at the vital voices gala about changing this patriarchal attitude that you were talking about earlier. and i wanted him to actually meet with molly, from senegal who actually has changed over the course of 20 years. she has been able to abolish female genital mutilation in the whole area of all these villages in senegal by simply co-opting the men. he has become an expert at changing the minds of men and i want him and her to meet because she has so much information about that, that she can share. >> the consciousness that it creates is not only with women. it's also with the media. and it also at the government levels. i mean ultimately the change, we need to connect for me, connect the women stories with the economy, with the society, with politics. >> part of larger issues as well. >> and judiciary, so it is a huge, it's hugely important that society stands up and the impact, the ripple effect of this young girl
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who stands up and saying i want to stop, you know. but that's one thing. but if also, we ultimately have to understand that unless we invest in women, economically and politically and socially, we cannot progress. we cannot-- this country is the number one reason for this country's economic growth is the inclusion of women 50 years ago in its market space. in its market economy. the number one reason for it. >> in this country. >> in this country. in america and western europe. >> you still have a long way to go. >> but we still-- so if for emerging markets whether in india or the middle east, to rise up as much as the western europe has risen up in its economy, they have to include 1 billion women in the market space. so it's consciousness and the consciousness is not only on a moral level, it's also in a very practical level. >> i'm also struck by the fact that most of the debate in america about women has to do with achieving power,
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you know, from sheryl sandberg and how you find, you know, the right course and how you have women together and support each other. and all those issues. but what happens at this conference and since you began and you meet the people t is a struggle, it is a struggle for life itself. >> absolutely. >> it's not about trying to get the corner office. it's actually about -- >> it's about your health. >> the way you are treated. it's about violence and survival. >> about survival. or simply just getting basic entry. you can't be, you can't be an entrepreneur and leaning in if you are not allowed to get credit. >> or if you are not safe. >> or if you are not safe. >> or if cultural simply ignores, doesn't value your contribution or human knit the same way. >> absolutely. >> but the telling of the story and making its noise is just so important because it has a kind of ripple effect, you know. in india today, the balance is really shifting, you know, towards women which is not 20 say that it's a kind of
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happy positive story. india can be an extremely savage place for women. and it is. but there is just so much pressure building knew, to be empathetic to women. and it's not just a women's site an i think that is the point we need to make that men are very much a part of it. so when we're talking about qualitieses that you want to bring into public discourse, into public life, it's more about having feminine qualities rather than it being the domain of the female, you know, which is really about being persuasive, consult difficult, con sensual, you know, these things which are beginning to get a voice in public life, in life of poll particulars, in the judiciary. and very, very importantly, you know, a horrific pain. there was the judges themselves used to advise women who are, you know, victims of violence whether it's rape or marital violence, or you know even if, particularly if they have been raped, judges have been known to tell the women that mary your rapist because are you stigmatized now and helpless an
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vulnerable. and who will you turn to. >> rose: stigma advertised by your own family. >> and that language is completely got outlawed now. >> rose: what has changed in iraq? >> the very sad story, in my opinion. vis-a-vis women, women gained political power, that's a good story. we have now 33% of the iraqi parliament are women. they have reserve seats of 25% in the parliament. >> more than we have. >> that's more than we have. >> but there is only one ministerial position for women out of 19, i believe, if i remember correctly, of 16 minister,, cabinet positions. and she is leading the women's affair way very miniscule budget that doesn't do anything. so politically they have political representation. i have to say religious parties are actually much savior in inclusion of women in their political parties than secular partieses. socially and economically, though, women have regressed, big time. you no longer see women in the workforce, in the same volume they were really significantly in the workforce in the '80s.
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you no longer see women in its cars, driving. you no longer see women who are not wearing heads scarves. the women in the public space in iraq have disappeared and retreated back. >> and you think the same is true in egypt? >> this s it's beginning to happen in he sgipt. when there is insecurity in the streets women retreat usually. in iraq the insecurity is a different level it was bombings and explosions. and there is still a check point in every corner of the city of the country, rather. and so women do retreat because of that. in egypt they are fighting, in a different way. they participated in the change. in iraq the change came from abroad to them. so it's a different story. but it's a story that is telling. political participation is not the only focus. we have to focus on the economic and its social one as well. >> and the entrepreneurial as well. >> hugely important. >> the amazing thing is that you can go to this conference, and meet the two representatives, smart, interesting people, with passion from different parts of the world who are talking
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about issues that concern everybody. but you get a sense from being at the summit because of the collection of people that come, of how many there are like you who are out there on the front lines of change, you know. and people to realize that and appreciate that and see the face of those people. >> it's really incredible, actually. we have -- coming from south africa, she is the new brown starting party in opposition to the anc. and i think you will be interviewing her. >> yes, i am. >> a fascinating woman with an incredible story. the life partner of steven beaker who was murdered, of course, in his jail cell. and she has lived an extraordinary life. and you keep on meeting these women whose back stories are so incredible. i sometimes think that the women who live behind the headlines of the news. we see these stories every day, a bomb here, this person was shot, but in the middle of all that, these women who people haven't heard of who are just fighting all the time to make changes for their family to just better their lives and doing it in such a lonely way that for us to
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recognize them is very exciting. >> i always say if you want to learn a story of a country, learn what is happening to its women. they really tell you an int mat story of what is happening in that nation. so the women's story is not only a women's story, it is eye national story. >> foreign affairs through the eyes of women witness absolutely. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> look forward to participating. >> thank you all. great to see you. back in a moment. stay with us. >> david stockman is here from 1981 to 1985 he served as budget director in the reagan administration. since leaving government he has become an advocate for what he calls found money. his latest book is called 9 great deformation, the corruption of capitalism in america it is a controversy critique of the last century of american physical and monetary policy. i'm pleased to have him on this program, welcome. >> delighted to be here. >> rose: then there was a sunday piece which was called sundown in america.
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and then you made the case for why bank bailouts, massive government debt and unprecedented federal intervention into financial markets will doom the u.s. over the long-term. since then everybody has come out of the woodwork. most of them attacking you. so tell me about the origin of the piece. >> some of the themes are in this book. and basically saying that anybody who has anything invested in any market get out. >> well, i said that because i think it's pretty obvious that the fed has become a serial bubble machine. it's part of what i write about in the book there was much whooping and celebration last week when we hit 50s and 60 on the s&p. i only know that 13 years ago 4700 days ago we hit the same point in march 2000. and then we had a massive crash and the public lost $5 trillion. and then the bubble was reflated by greenspan until we hit 9 peak in '07, '08. >> are you suggesting because of the federal reserve we will have one bubble after another. >> the federal reserve has basically become a bubble
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machine, printing such massive amounts of money, driving interest rates to 0. providing easy carey trade money to speculators. but it doesn't get into the real economy. there has been fabulous expansion of the fed's balance sheet as you know since the crisis of 2/'08. and almost all of that new money created 1.7 trillion is simply circulated through the banking system, through the singers of wall street, so to speak, and is back on the fed's balance sheet. so what it does is allow people to speculate and hit home runs. it doesn't go to main street. it's not helping the main street economy. and it's crushing favors. remember, if you are saving, if you saved your whole life and you have 100,000, you're making $400 today or something as a result of the fed crushing short-term interest rates. >> rose: now these new ideas for you or ideas that you have had for a long time. >> well, many of these ideas i've had for a long time but it's gotten worse,
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especially since 2000. when the dot pom-- dotcom bubble crashed it should have been a wake-up call. >> 2,000, 2001, yeah. it should have been a wake-up call that there is something wrong here when these stocks can go up 3, 4, five times and then just disappear in a flash. >> with no easternings to back up. >> they were, you know, they were valuing eyeballs and all the rest of it. but would did 9 fed do. instead of allowing the market to work this out, to liquidate the speculation, to allow discipline to set in, it immediately put its food on the accelerator, remember greenspan drove the interest rate down from 6% to 1% in about 24 months. 1% money was a signal, you know, party on, the party's restarted. and then we had the housing bubble. we had the, you know, lbo bubble which was horrendous there '07 and '08. and then the big crash, and what did they do, they came back for a third massive
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injection of liquidity. >> rose: okay, let me get this clear. number one, that the tech bubble which came in 2000, 2001. then you had in 200 -- >> 6, 7 and 8, the housing and stock markets bubble. >> rose: which collapsed in 2008. what is the next bubble. >> well, there a bubble everywhere you look. the stock market is back up 110% from its bottom. on the other hand, main street lost $6 million middle class full-time jobs. we've recovered only 15% of them so if the main street economy is suffering, and i think you can document it in so many ways, you know, barely recovered from the bottom, how is it possible the stock market is back up 115%. or that junk bonds are booming. we have more junk bond issuance last year than any time in history. or how is it that some of these lbo guys are writing? >> you don't think this is a real recovery. >> i don't think it's a recovery. i think it's entirely a low-interest rate, 0 interest rate driven short-term bounce, much of
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it in the financial economy. it's fiscally driven. i mean we passed out, you know, four or five trillion dollars worth of federal stimulus. my point in the book is it's not sustainable, and when it stops which will have to, the fed money printing, the deficits, we're going to be in for a period of huge adjustments. >> here's what you said. the united states was broke. >> fiscally, morally, intellectually. and the fed has insighted a global currency war. now here's what happened. a whole bunch of people stepped forward to say and this includes paul krugman who some say ben wright, he says actually i was disappointed in stockman's piece. i thought there would be some kind of real argument. instead it is just a series of gee whiz context and model free numbers embedded in eye rant and not even an interesting rant t is cranky old man stuff, sad. paul krugman. >> you know what, he was a young man working on the white house staff under reagan. he seemed to be like a pretty pleasant, astute guy,
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something went wrong over the last 30 years, maybe it is that aging doesn't suit some people well. but i would make the point that in 202 krugman actually said after the dotcom crash greenspan needs to create another bubble to get it going, let's have a housing bubble, he said that. now do you think the housing bubble that upended tens of millions of american families, the subprime what it did to the length and breadth of our society and the number of people that were harmed by that, you think that was a good idea? he recommended it. so when krugman. >> what he recommended then did not necessarily make it wrong here. >> he was wrong on the housing bubble, okay. that is for sure. >> i'm just saying because these are people as i said at the beginning, this thing created a whole lot of commentary. jared bernstein an advisor to the obama administration from 2009-11. says your analysis is mostly horrific screed and
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historical -- hunger games vision of america based on debt obsession and willful ignorance of macroeconomics and the impact of market failure. it's like hearing a crazy person on the street corner ranting about whatever. they invariably stumble on some profound and piercing insights but it's mostly nonsense and swlel that we keep our heads down and move on. >> look, he worked for obama. he is a unreconstructed kantionian. he thinks we can borrow our way to prosperity, just keep its red ink going so naturally when someone calls out the keynesian illusion, we're in the end game, almost broke in this country, we have 17 trillion of debt and there's no stopping it. it's going to go to 30 at worst. and so when someone calls out the illusion of keynesian economics, then the two chief high priests of keynesianism today krugman and bernstein obviously, respond. >> how about bernanke. >> bernanke is the single
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most dangerous man ever to occupy high office in u.s. history. it is terrible what the fed is doing. >> i have listened to is a many smart people come in here, just to raise this point, and say that we're lucky that we had paulson and bernanke and geithner there when we did in 2007 and 8. >> i disagree with continuation, and that's what my book lays out. >> they see the economy and the economic system from total collapse. >> that is an urban legend. it's complete mythology. i document it, chapter and verse but let me mention three things. one, the idea that we were on the lip of depression 2.0 is pure myth. it's the economic equivalent of wmdt never happened. we weren't remotely there. lay out. >> we were in no danger. >> we were not in danger of the whole main street economy cratering. >> all of a sudden these companies had to kind of crisis and leeman went under. >> lehman should have.
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>> aig almost did. >> no, no, look. >> what, no, no they -- >> my argument, my argument is that there was massive terrible leverage speculation on wall street for four or five years. spurred by the greenspan bubble, that this crash was basically mr. market saying the day of reckoning is here. when are you leveraged 30-1, when su have sludge and toxic assets on one side and you're funding yourself on the other side of the balance sheet with hot overnight money, then you're going to have a run that was on the wholesale funding, not the retail banking system, the braemdown would have been in the canyons of wall street, it would have burned out there, goldman would have begun been gone, morgan would have been gone. the other three were already gone, lehmann, bear and merrill and that would have basically cleansed the system. and we should have let it happen. >> rose: what is your personal story since you came to wall street. >> well, i was at sol mann,
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i was at blackstone southernly, at my own fund. hi a huge blowup in one of the companies, i learned, i learned the lesson that when you lever companies five and six times, debt to cash flow, there is no margin for error. and that if the world suddenly takes an unexpected lurch, the whole thing can be upended and the fact is, i firmly believe that if we had real interest rates, and a fair tax system, i wouldn't have been doing leverage byouts and a lot of other people wouldn't either because it only-- as long as you had the kind of money that was accessible. >> that's right. >> you didn't even have to be brilliant. >> no, no. in other words, if we had honest interest rates that were 8 or 150% for leveraged high risk credits, and we will a level playing field so taxes on debt and equity were the same and we didn't have carried interest for the lbo guys and we didn't have 20% capital gains taxes, if we had an honest level
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system, most of this leveraged speculation -- >> let me also stand on fairness of your record as well, or in betrayal of your record, what, went bust? or bankrupt. >> of course, it was the first auto supplier that second, and eventually the whole industry went down including gm and chrysler and everybody in between. >> part of the same thing. >> only one or two survive. everybody was too leveraged. the whole industry was one big daisy chain of debt. >> and you went on trial and were acquitted. >> no, i didn't even go on trial. i was basically charged by a prosecutor, i demonstrated that they didn't have a case. >> so it never got to a trial. >> no, they dropped the case on the grounds that they basically didn't have a case. >> the great deformation, the corruption of capitalnism america, david a stockman, back in a moment. stay with us. >> clive davis is to many a music legend. for the last 50 year he has cultivated some of the
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greatest contemporary recording artists, roster of talent including bruce springstein, billy joel, aerosmith, carlos santana, barry manilow, patti smith and of course the late great whitney houston ♪ and i i ♪ will always love you ♪ i will always ♪. >> his new memoir the soundtrack of my life takes a look back at his extraordinary life of music. i'm pleased to have him back at this table, welcome. >> thank you, thank you so much. >> good to see you. here is the irony. i found this out from reading this book. you were not steeped in music. you were not a young man that from your earliest memories listened to music, was encouraged to listen to music, loved music. >> that's true. >> you came to music from a nonmusical world. >> that's very true. i have listened to the popular program, the make believe ballroom with martin block but i was aware of the hits of the day but i was
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not a music junkie. i was not a collector. it was not permeating my blood. hi no clue that music would become my passion. >> and you were a lawyer for god sakes. >> i was a lawyer to rise above the station of my parents who died when i was a teenager. >> harvard law school. >> harvard law school. >> yeah. and so you got it, and that the legal end and made your way to be head of columbia records. and you showed this extraordinary talent. who was it and how did you have it? >> i never discovered how i had it. i just few that the first time i saw janice joplin in the group big brother. >> was that its whole monterey thing. >> at the monterey pop. hi the jobs ahead of the company for a year, i watched, i observed. but i knew when i saw her i got a special feeling, if that were an epiphany to have any meaning, it changed the rest of my life. i signed her and the group and then gradually built
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this track record, you know, with blood, sweat and teefers and chicago. >> right. >> santana, springstein so that as it kept happening, you know, i learned to trust that maybe through luck, happenstance, hi what they called a natural gift. >> one of the other great figures in music in terms of an executive is-- did you have different skills than he had? >> well, we had different styles but i mean he was a great competitor. we were friends. but we competed with each other for records. i think that what we shared in common as it turned out, music was the passion that dominated our lives. and i still well remember when you say ahmed, me at one end of the beverly hills hotel in cabana life, him with jagger and clapton and me with sly and santana, you know, so that, but we shared
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that love of music, that was very common to both. >> where do you put john hammond. >> john hammond was an incredible a & r man. he didn't run a company. he was not involved with a marketing but he was and he was someone who discovered billy holiday and aretha franklin. >> he had a lot to do with springstein too. >> he definitely did. he was the one that springstein and his manager went to see him because they wanted to know who discovered bob dylan. and john hammond went over his material and i never forget him bringing bruce into my office and going over the material. and making the decision jointly to sign bruce springstein. >> of all the people that you have worked with, who have but be closest too? >> the artist. >> is witny always going to be sort of the one because you had such an influence because she was so young when you -- >> well, when you discover a
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rock 'n' roll artist, you are discovering someone who is self-contained. are you waiting for that artist like patty smith, you know, springstein. you're waiting for that artist. and it doesn't just have to be rock, it's true of alecia keyes. are you waiting for them to write and develop their music. in the case of barry manilow, the first artist on arista records which i founded, i then honed my ear to find great songs, either for artist was don't write or like barry, artists who did write hit songs but maybe not enough to have the magnitude of his career 30, 40 years later. and so i got, i was a creative partner of barry. there is a separate chapter in my book for him and for whitny and aretha franklin and dion warwick because i was their creative partner in coming up with songs that
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hopefully have stood the test of time. >> but there's this too, some people have criticized you. there is one, a number of instances in which you site an artist and you make it clear that they did not listen to your advice. and it turned out not to be good for them. >> well, that is true. that's in connection with artists who want to write. but are not great writers. and yet they have an incredible voice. i mean the examples would be for your audience if you they remember melissa manchester who was able to write midnight blue. who wrote come in from the rain. and although i was to give her don't cry outloud and you should hear how they talk about you, she did not want to be a female barry manilow, even though there were very close friends within or a female barbara stis and. >> no, she didn't. she saw herself. >> but barbara didn't write her stuff either. >> no she didn't. so for me i have great
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respect for the songwriters who gave to streisand, who gave to sin at ra, and indeed with whitny, after the first two albums, 7 number one consecutive records, she came to me. and she said i'm getting hurt by critics who feel i should write. and they're not respecting what i am doing as much as if i did write. should i writeness and my answer to her was to me, if you can write, i'm thrilled to get those songs. it's a big burden off of me. but-- to me you are in the that decision of billy holiday, ella fitzgerald, sin at ra, stis and-- streisand, of aretha. you have a genius of a voice, if you can write a song like the greatest love of all or saving all my love for you, do testimony. but have you a tradition here that to me is incredible. and she never really raised that issue again. where artists, you can have a great voice but if you
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don't have signature songs, if you don't break through with material, you have a career that stalls. and i give in the book examples of artists who many years later say why didn't you give me shock therapy, why did you let me say i've got to write. >> yeah, but are you damn glad that bruce springstein writes his own songs. >> listen. >> 80%. >> that bob dylan writes his own songs. >> 80% of the artists that have i dealt with write their own materials. springstein and alecia, and-- patti smith. >> of course they're geniuses in their writing. >> talk about, and i'm interested in this a lot, people who have magical voices. whether it's whitney houston, or barbara stis and-- streisand or frank sinatra. various different levels of band appreciation watch. do they have? and where does it come from? >> that's describing, they
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have incredible natural gifts, streisand when you see her from that first show, i can get it through you wholesale. when you hear her doing people, when you see videos of her from the beginning,, it's incredible. for me i didn't discover by any mean as rhetta franklin but there are some artists that you say their career should not end with their error of great songs. it should go on for decades, so occasionally it was dion warwick or aretha franklin, i signed them because they are genius is in their voice. can you picture and not picture and here dion warwick's voice? >> did, but are they born with did or is it simply that early on aretha was in the church and she was singing in the church early on? >> i think most of it is natural, most of it is a
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gord-given voice. >> somebody noises and encourages it and the better you do the more you want to do and the more you want to do t the better you get. >> i think that is true but so much is natural. >> who is the best, who is the most successful artist that didn't really have a good voice. >> who didn't really have a good voice. >> yeah. >> well, certainly, if you talk about a bob dylan, if you talk about you know when patti smith began with that haunting poetry that she combined with rock music, it wasn't a question of them going a great but its combination, they were riveting. and ultimately the public and we, i mean to me the two great poet laureates of america coming out of music, bob dylan and bruce spring "teen" and when john hammond and i signed bruce, he wasn't the greatest rock 'n' roll performer of all time. he shocked me a few years later in his career when he asked me to come to the bottom line and all of a
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sudden based on his own intuition, natural gift, he was jumping. he had before that steve-- all of a sudden he was jumping from table to table, all over the bottom line. and he, to me the greatest rock 'n' roll performer alive today. >> because if you go to his concert you walk away believing he gave me every ounce he had. >> every ounce that he had. >> there is also this though. people who are great artists, i tend to nourish their talent. and tend to try to take care of it, sinatra, for example. you know the legendary stories about how he would swim underwater for, to just develop the power within his lungs. >> surprisingly he smoked a lot. >> i know. >> i mean this is from just observation. i no career involvement. but surprisingly, he didn't maybe, he was not aware and i think at the time people didn't know the lethal impact of cigarettes.
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>> but back to the voice thing s it, i mean is it pitch. is if, i mean am i looking for the wrong thing, it's just there, something like its bird sings, he just hear it. >> there was obviously a difference for the artist. for aretha and wlitny it sold. aretha digs down, for me, what i do when i give speeches to students, i will play the demo of the song that came to me, before i played it for whitny then play the finished record and show what she brought to that song and the difference. >> and what is it, you can define it rather than hearing it. i love to hear it. >> she finds meaning, found meaning in the songs, in the lyrics that i don't think the composers knew were there. when i first auditioned her, when i first saw her and she was doing the greatest love of all in her act, she had two songs in the middle, and i knew the song well because i had conditioned it for the life of muhammed ali.
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i heard her do it, and even though we had a hit record with george againson eighths years before, she was finding meaning in those lines about the children, about the greatest love of all, that i had never heard before. motivated me to call the composer and say fly into new york, are you not going to believe what you are going to hear. >> what is your best decision and your worst decision. >> well, i thought my worst decision, if you have time for a parable was when i passed on john cougar mellencamp. a great rock 'n' roll icon. but just a few years ago, at the rock 'n' roll induction hall of fame induction dinner for-- of the rolling stones we were at elaines restaurants and we sat down and i was sitting, me here, spring sfooen mellencamp,
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don henley and jock son brown. and i was saying to john, there is so ironic in every interview when they say who is the biggest artist you passed on. and i say john t was you because you were too close, ironically to bruce who is sitting between us. he did say to me clive i want you to rest easy. let me fell you, eight weeks before i auditions for you, i was in a cover band. and then david bowie's manager came to see me, said leave that cover band. you got to start writing. and i left the cover band, i started writing. aide weeks later i am auditioning for you. who was the biggest influence on me at the time. it was bruce springstein. so rest easy now when you tell the story. because i was very close too the guys that you and john hammonds signed from the beginning of his career. >> there are a thousand stories like this in 24 book called the soundtrack of my life, clive davis, written
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with anthony decurtis, a very good journalist in his own right, thank you for coming. >> very kind, thank you. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and susie gharib, brought to you by -- >> the street.com. interactive financial multimedia tools for an ever-changing financial world. our dividend stock adviser guides and helps generate income during the period of low interest rates. real money helps you think through ideas for investing and trading stocks.
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action alerts plus is a charitable trust portfolio that provides trade by trade strategies. online, mobile social media. we are the street.com. >> jobs jolt. an unexpectedly weak employment report raises doubts about the economy's health and sends stocks and bond yields lower. cuts coming. the president readies the budget proposal said to include controversial trims in social security and other entitlement programs. making his point. meet the quirky entrepreneur who earns money sharpening pencils. we have all that and more on this special jobs edition of "nightly business report." good evening, everyone. a miserable march for jobs and tyler, what a nerve-racking day for investors. >> it was way worse earlier and ended on a bit of an up note. a huge disappointment. that's how one investment strategist characterized the
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surprisingly weak job report. it was less than half as many as economists expected and less than third the pace in february. the up employment rate dropped a tenth of a point to 7.6%, but only because so many people stopped looking for work. the bleak report calls into question the health of the recovery, but investors didn't wait for answers. they sold stocks and bought treasuries. the dow did finish down 41 points at 14,565 and change. the s&p gave up roughly seven points, 1553 the close there and the nasdaq was off 21 points. the yield on the ten-year treasury closed at 1.71%. that's its lowest close this year. hampton pearson has our report. >> reporter: the down turn in the retail sector was one of the biggest drags on job growth. in march, 24,000 jobs were lost and in an industry th
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